"Big Bang Theory" or "Big Crunch Theory" (A detail for rational searcher)

hafizsaad

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"Big Bang Theory" or "Big Crunch Theory" (A detail for rational searcher)

Neither of you understand what the 'big bang' is and why physicists beleive it to be true, so why even bring it up.
And no, the the big bang is not an explosion.


Or these idiots dont know about steady state theory (which is not favoured because of "so called empirical anomallies" ) either. which explains the universe to expand and shrink in cycles. No point in responding to these gibberish..they dont have a clue about what basic science or physics is..:lol:




"Big Bang Theory" or "Big Crunch Theory"


(A scientific Logical Detail for Rational searcher)​


The existence of the universe.

One of the most difficult question philosophy desperately tries to answer; is to account for the existence of the universe. To account for existence. Mankind has pondered over this question for ages. Some atheists claim that the concept God was invented to explain this question. Some theist on the other hand claim that God is the only possible and plausible answer. Worthy enough subject for a separate page I think.

So, what is big bang anyway ?

The big bang theory, is a theory in physics that explains how the universe evolved from it's primitive state up to it's current. It does not explain how the universe originated, or what caused it to exist. It simply explains how the universe behaved after it originated! People often ask, if God created everything, what created God? Well big bang has the same problem, if big bang turned the universe into what it is today, what created the big bang? You see the game can be played at both sides. At least I never propose that believing in God answers this question. That's a strawman argument some might use. Some on the other hand do claim that big bang solves the question of beginning of existence, while it obviously does not either. So big bang does not serve as an alternative for not believing in God. In fact the Qur'an even describes the beginning of the universe, and its constant expansion in a similar way. Either way, let’s review some of the theories of big bang.

No more faith in the steady state.

When Newton formulated his gravitational theories, he encountered a big problem. Up until then, it was believed in the west that the universe was created in a steady state, and that it hasn't changed all that much since it's creation. But if that was true, how come gravity hasn't made all the planets and stars collapse into each other? For some time people attempted to save the the steady state idea by proposing theories with antagonistic forces or fixed ethers. But then in 1929 Edwin Hubble discovered that all the planets are slowly moving away from us, and each other. It doesn't take a genius to wind back the clock and suggest that all originated from the same spot. So, what send the planets and stars on their current course moving away from somewhere? Well it must have been something big and something with a lot of bang in it.

The singularity of no return.

In the early theories of big bang, cosmologists suggested a very huge collection of matter exploded. But as science progresses, the amount seems to be growing smaller, until recently suggestions have been made of big bang being originated from a singularity. A singularity is point with enormous mass all condensed, to fit that single point. It's a black hole that collapsed. It could be a physicists worst nightmare, or his wet dream at the same time. See in in the world of the very big, calculating the courses of stars and galaxies, gravity is sufficient. The other 3 physical forces are to small to have any affect on that level. In the world of the very small on the other hand, the electromagnetic-; the weak-; and the strong-force rule, whereas gravity has little to say, since small particles don't carry enough weight, to be more accurate: mass. Now in a singularity, where there's a lot of mass, in a very small region, both the 3 forces of quantum mechanics and gravity apply, and we're not quite sure what that would give. One thing's certain: we're totally clueless, as to why the singularity would have exploded, or what would have origenated the singularity in the first place.

If you's down with M, then bang your branes.

There's a new, very elegant theory, called the M-theory. The theory isn't really scientific since it's based strictly on maths and not on empirical testing. But it concerns physics. It proposes that the elemental building block of all particles we know are strings. A bit like rubber bands. The different characteristics that different particles have depend on how the strings vibrate. However it's vital to the theory that our universe consists out of 11 Dimensions rather than four! Next to the four spatio-temporal dimensions, there would be 6 very small dimensions in which the strings can vibrate. To understand how these small dimensions work, imagine a fine thread. It looks as if it has only one dimension at first glance, but closer inspection reveals another smaller circular dimension rather then going from the right end to the left end and vice versa, you can also go around it. Then finally an 11th dimension is needed to unify several parts of the theory. This 11th dimension is sort of a gigantic membrane that holds the other 10 dimensions of the universe. For a more in depth explanation of these theories, watch The elegant universe

Now some supporters of this theory have suggested yet another theory, the multi-verse theory. The idea of multiple universes isn't really new, and is very successful in science fiction. But the 11th dimension sort of opened the door to it into the room of science. See if the universe is but a thin big membrane, then perhaps there could be several membranes next to one another. Now one of the interesting implications of this hypothesis, what if two membranes banged into one another? Wouldn't the resulting force explain the big bang? But this only shifts the questions, what originated these membranes?

Forever? And ever ever? And ever ever ever ?

Now none of this has actually solved the dilemma of existence. Has the universe always existed, or did it originate at some point. Soon after the Big bang theory came the Big crunch theory. If the expansion of the universe slows down in the future, and the universe has enough mass, it could implode back. It wasn't long until people then suggested an infinite series of explosions and implosions following up on each other.

According to science, there is a conservation of energy within any closed system. This means the total amount of energy in a closed system always stays the same. No new energy is created, or no old destroyed. The only changes that occur, is that energy is changed from one form to another. The first problem with the big bang/ big crunch theory, is that such wouldn't necessaryly be a closed system, and hence if even the slightest amount of energy would escape from each "big crunch", over an infinite number of times the universe would be void of any energy at all. So it is impossible for an infinite numbers of big bangs to have preceded us, unless it can be guaranteed that all energy of the universe is kept at each big crunch.

But even in a closed system, entropy still rains on that parade. Entropy still forbids a universe going back infinitely. Entropy is a conventional term scientists thought up to refer to the state of energy. I already explained how in a closed system no energy is created or destroyed and that the only changes that occur, is that energy is changed from one form to another. However, certain of such transformations are a one-way street. When energy has gone into a state that it cannot turn back from (spontaneously) then we say that it's entropy has increased. If there had already passed an infinite amount of time, then it would be expected that all entropy would already have been maximised.

Then the standardized theory made us rethink what space-time-continuum is. As a materialistic construct, time and space itself would have originated from the big bang themselves. Then Big bang would be the cause of the beginning of time, rather then occurring at the beginning of time! So again, infinity hardly seems an alternative solution to account for the existence of our universe.

Or what about our banging membranes? Many scientists suggested they have existed forever to. But there's a big problem with that suggestion to. These membranes, didn't they contain space-time? So how can a membrane be "infinite over time" when a membrane doesn't even have time? Well it has time in the sense that it contains a temporal dimension within it. But it doesn't have time in the sense that it is not contained by our temporal dimension. A bit like the layers of time paradox I talked about on the four-dimensionalism page.

after all these theories, we still have to face the facts that big bang was such a monstrous and devastating event that we can find little if any evidence of what went before it. It's all speculation. Whether the universe existed eternally before it, or just two seconds, we wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Any guess is just as reliable as the next.

Next to that, Big bang creating time itself brings another problem. It suggest an initial movement and change which is independent of time and space. A type of movement which is thus very different of the movements in time and space we witness every day. So big bang by itself cannot be seen as an explanation for the beginning of the universe. Big bang is what happened right after the universe originated. So in conclusion I would say: The little we know does not in any way contradict or even compete with the idea of the universe being created.

 

Mononoke

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Let me add that the author while generally consistent is wrong on certain occasions.

For example: The big bang didn't explode.

Also, Entropy can be extend for all eternity by literally swapping entropy into empty space. Here is the complete description of how entropy is shed

http://scitation.aip.org/getpdf/ser...98000007071301000001&idtype=cvips&prog=normal

Also the author has a woeful misunderstanding of time and the concept of infinity
 
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sirajstc

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    ~*~CeYLoN..~*~
    Where Did Everything Come From?

    What is the proof?

    Islam tells us Allah is both The Creator & The Evolver, of all that exits. We know Allah did not evolve us from monkeys, and we know all things are from Allah. Please share this information with those who deny the existence of God. They need it.

    There is a popular theory referred to as the 'Big Bang' theory. It tries to explain the existence of the universe in an evolutionary manner having an initial beginning with an immense explosion of some gases or solid mass. Some say there first was a void or ’nothingness’, or perhaps, some gases which exploded then from this everything in the universe simply began to evolve to the stage that we see now. There has never really been any solid evidence for this idea of 'something out of nothing' concept. Nor for that matter, the evolutionary theory itself.

    We would like to explore the idea of creation from a purely logical standpoint using simple terminology without religious hype, emotional pre-convictions or superstitions.

    bullet.gif
    What if someone called a 'scientist' tells you his 'theory' of how cars are made is like this:

    A salvage yard on the south side of town blows up and all the metal pieces fly into the air and fall back down in one place forming a brand new Chevrolet Caprice automobile.. with no left over parts.. and the motor is running..

    bullet.gif
    Or what if his theory for how a chair is made is:

    An explosion occurs in a forest and the trees go flying into the air and then suddenly they combine with some flying cloth to make a beautiful chair... and then it lands in a furniture showroom complete with matching table and lamp...

    bullet.gif
    He further explains that:

    An earthquake in California's 'Silicon Valley' causes the computer chips and circuit boards and other various parts to fall out of their boxes and off of their shelves and just come in place together as they are rolling around on the floor and form the most advanced technical computers existing on the earth?...

    bullet.gif
    Or what of his 'Medicine Theory'? He now claims that:

    A gas leak in a pharmacy warehouse causes a terrific explosion. All the different chemicals and substances just smash into each other in exactly the correct amounts to produce a miracle drug which cures everything form cancer to heart and liver disease, old age and warts?...

    bullet.gif
    Wait... there's more to this one:

    It is all in one formula, packaged in the bottles with labels and ready to sell with no mess left on the floor?...

    bullet.gif
    Now after all this exploding and excitement this 'scientist' tells you of a great place to relax and have something to eat. It is his favorite place and he calls it: "Burger Blast"! He says:

    You just go in and sit down and suddenly a 'blast' from the kitchen occurs and immediately a burger lands right in front of you with all the trimmings.. just the way you like it complete with fries, a drink and even your favorite dessert?...

    bullet.gif
    AND...

    No one works at "Burger Blast", it just runs itself, automatically cleaning itself and as you leave it scans your billfold for a valid credit card and charges your bank account for what you have eaten?...

    Now the question is: "Are you really going to accept any of this as 'fact'?"

    Of course not!

    We wouldn't believe a new car is made from flying junk; chairs don't fall down from exploding trees; earthquakes do not produce computers and blasting burgers don't rain down on us from above.

    Question: So how come we don't challenge a theory of something coming from nothing and then colliding in the cosmos to make the universe? Is it because of its tremendous magnitude that we have so little comprehension about it, that we are willing to accept any theory from a few telescope 'peeping Toms' to tell us that it came from 'nothingness'? Or just some gases colliding and then... 'Poof'!? Instant Universe? How?

    Let us now come to our main subject:


    separator.gif


    Creation or Explosion?

    We can turn our attention to the earth and the heavens and make observations on our own without a 'genius' scientist telling us what we are seeing. And then the idea that nothing is sustaining the heavens and the earth! - 'It just runs itself'? How?

    Think about the stars, the sun, the moon and the countless solar systems and galaxies in the universe.
    Who or What created them in the first place?
    They continue to function and move with the utmost precision and accuracy.
    Who does this? Who keeps them gliding along on their courses and orbits preordained for them?

    The Quran on the Origin of the Universe

    Look closer to the heaven surrounding the earth. We call it the 'sky'. Notice the clouds? What are they?

    The Quran on Clouds

    Let us now bring our gaze a bit closer to earth. Consider the mountains and their majesty. Is there anything about these massive formations that may give us a clue as to the origin of creation?

    The Quran on Mountains

    What about the water covering the earth? Is there another clue hiding beneath the seas?

    The Quran on Deep Seas and Internal Waves

    Water covers so much of the earth and even mixes with the land in rivers and streams. Yet is there something keeping it from mixing with itself? What is contained in this mystery of separation of waters?

    The Quran on Seas and Rivers

    What about us? Are we are part of creation? How did we begin? What develops us and causes us to live and die? How are we sustained?

    The Quran on Human Embryonic Development

    Think about the humans. How did we all get here? What is the nature of mankind? What causes us to act as we do? Are we ungrateful to the One who created us and sustains us? What is this clue? Think about yourself. Did you create yourself?

    The Quran on the Cerebrum (forehead area of the brain in humans)

    Who or What created all this? Who is sustaining everything? How do organisms reproduce themselves? How can a tree grow up out of a seed?
     

    ela_eluwa120

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    God is invisible....and there are other stuff that are invisible...


    Point is by definition dimensionless...so point is invisible....

    So, I can't see the point of this thread....:rofl::rofl:
     

    ex-muslim Ahmed

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    God is invisible....and there are other stuff that are invisible...


    Point is by definition dimensionless...so point is invisible....

    So, I can't see the point of this thread....:rofl::rofl:

    Aha! you should follow our beloved prophet and drink some camel piss, then fill your nostrils with water, so that satan cant stay in your nose. then you should find some house flies and dip them in your tea and drink it... then you will see the point!

    dont beleive me?

    read the rib tickling Hadiths
    http://www.elakiri.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272818&page=4
     

    sudunone

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    Did anybody actually read the above copy-pasted material?:eek: If so can that somebody list the important points in there, if any? Thanks in advance.

    What does the origin of the universe has to do with our lives anyway??:oo:
     

    hafizsaad

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    Let me add that the author while generally consistent is wrong on certain occasions.

    For example: The big bang didn't explode.

    Well big bang wasn't an explosion in the strict sense of the word, but the word explosion is still somewhat applicable. Your argument is semantic in nature; splitting hairs.
    Also, Entropy can be extend for all eternity by literally swapping entropy into empty space. Here is the complete description of how entropy is shed

    http://scitation.aip.org/getpdf/ser...98000007071301000001&idtype=cvips&prog=normal
    As for your argument on entropy the link is accessible to members of that site only. Anyway, granted if space expands infinity swapping entropy into empty space might postphone a "maximum" entropy-value infinity as well. But it still doesn't decrease entropy. So my argument still stands in the sense that the idea of an infinitely old universe does not correspond to observance of our current universe. If I was simplistic in my explanation, that was to make it accessible to the general public as there is no real reason to go into those details.

    Also the author has a woeful misunderstanding of time and the concept of infinity

    Brother Mononoke,
    The All Material which i have given is my Friend great search on the topic, He is a Philospher and a good scientist and also former athiest...
    he was a big athiest debator till 2005. after world when he convert he has written all answer to confusion of athiest on all critical topic (dont mind i am using world confusion)...the upper comment i posted is also directly from him.

    As for your comment on my understanding of time and infinity, I (My friend) can't really respond to that since you didn't care to back up your claims with arguments.
    Brother i am giving you his website :


    http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/

    he has discuss infinity on the "fundamentalism" page of his website see here

    and discuss the nature and ontology of time on the "four-dimensionalism-page see
    here

    I think this site will be helpfull for you on all topic..
     
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    hafizsaad

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    Didn't get that bro. :no:

    How does origin of the universe relate to our happiness?

    You says well. it not necessary for spending a happy life to acquire these knowledge but i think the understanding and search in how universe and all thing on earth created and all other question for it (like why, when, where, how, who) is the nature of the human being..and this nature of human being has open the path for new invention and discoveries that has make human life more relax and easy and happy in many way.
     

    Mononoke

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    @Hafizaad's friend: I'm glad that you made this response.
    1) Explosion point is trivial

    2)I'm sorry I posted a link that you cannot access, my internet is directly link to university server so I can access all the academic publications for free. as such I didn't know the journal was inaccessible to others. In any case here is a free version of the same paper.

    Heat death happen when this equation holds

    S(t+1)=S(t)+dS right? if we can make dS vanishingly small then we can have an infinite process.

    What Baum et al are suggesting here is that when the universe is contracting there will be a separate pocket universes devoid of matter, with the exception of dark energy, so these universe can adiabatically, in the normal thermodynamic sense, contract with entropy increasing only infinitesimally.
     

    ela_eluwa120

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    You says well. it not necessary for spending a happy life to acquire these knowledge but i think the understanding and search in how universe and all thing on earth created and all other question for it (like why, when, where, how, who) is the nature of the human being..and this nature of human being has open the path for new invention and discoveries that has make human life more relax and easy and happy in many way.

    clinging for knowledge...:shocked:
     

    ex-muslim Ahmed

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    Ha ha,..joke of the month!

    hafi-SAD is lecturing us about Bing Bang.. This is the same guy who justify the muhammed's recommendations of

    1. drinking camel piss
    2. dipping house flies in tea
    3. filling nostrils with water so that satan cant stay:lol:

    Big bang eh? ... what does this kind of GENIUS know about bigbang?

    Even if big bang was true.., there is nothing about big-bang about quran..These guys are taking one sentence out of context and relate it to big bang...:lol: this sentence in quran say some thing about heaven. Not universe..No! crazy-MO didnt know about Universe... it is about Imaginary heaven.... bloody liers:lol::lol:
    In buddhism for exmple Time is a "pragnappti". - a convention. Buddhist philosophy correctly identifies time come into existence as a result of Anicca- the impermanence. Time is a measure of change, arise because of change and is not perceived by sense organ.. I dont think the crazy-mo followers can grasp this kind of philosophical explanations.

    Ther M-theory of string theory and branes colliding and giving rise to new universes ara also possible scenarios. String theory I think support multi diamentional universe and BIG BOUNCE..

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/view-peet.html

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html



     

    hafizsaad

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    Ha ha,..joke of the month!

    hafi-SAD is lecturing us about Bing Bang.. This is the same guy who justify the muhammed's recommendations of

    1. drinking camel piss
    2. dipping house flies in tea
    3. filling nostrils with water so that satan cant stay:lol:

    Big bang eh? ... what does this kind of GENIUS know about bigbang?

    Even if big bang was true.. there is nothing about big-bang about quranThese guys are taking one sentence out of context and relate it to big bang. this sentence in quran say some thing about heaven. Not universe..No! crazy-MO didnt know about Universe... it is about Imaginary heaven.... bloody liers:lol::lol:
    In buddhism for exmple Time is a "pragnappti". - a convention. Buddhist philosophy correctly identifies time come into existence as a result of Anicca- the impermanence. Time is a measure of change, arise because of change and is not perceived by sense organ.. I dont think the crazy-mo followers can grasp this kind of philosophical explanations.

    Ther M-theory of string theory and branes colliding and giving rise to new universes ara also possible scenarios. String theory I think support multi diamentional universe and BIG BOUNCE..

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/view-peet.html

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

    Keep On Laying and abusing every thread on the forum. People know you have nothing more to do,:baffled: therefore no one mind you and your comments:rofl:
     

    sudunone

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    You says well. it not necessary for spending a happy life to acquire these knowledge but i think the understanding and search in how universe and all thing on earth created and all other question for it (like why, when, where, how, who) is the nature of the human being..and this nature of human being has open the path for new invention and discoveries that has make human life more relax and easy and happy in many way.

    You're right. I also don't think knowledge of the origin of the universe is necessary for our happiness. Happiness is a state of mind, and it is up to us to decide how we react to our environment. ie: we create happiness or otherwise by interpreting and thinking on what we perceive.

    Personally, I don't think it's the nature of the human being. These questions may come to some people once their basic needs are satisfied. Some people whose religions/basic beliefs discuss such issues may entertain these questions but not all people. (For example, I've seen many Christian/Catholic people ponder over the question 'what's the purpose of my life?' and find some religion based answer to this. So I have come to the conclusion that their religion probably discusses this issue which leads to this worry.) Coming back to the origin of the universe, I, fortunately, belong to a religion that tells me there's no point in worrying about it and that has saved a lot of time for me.

    Wondering about the universe may have lead to the discovery of spaceships, theories of evolution etc. but it's not that clear to me how it all would make life more relaxed and happy for us. If at all, it would have made life more complicated and most of the inventions in that line have nothing much to offer for the average person. Can you explain this point further with some examples?